Forums > Kitesurfing General

Rescue or not?

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Created by Number > 9 months ago, 31 Aug 2013
dave......
WA, 2119 posts
2 Sep 2013 5:30PM
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Ive kited a fair bit and like eppo, started on kites that were not so friendly. The demographics of a normal kite was 30+yrs oldand most of us had come from an extensive surfing/windsurfing/sailing background. When we let go of the bar, nothing much different hapened. We regularly made sure everyone was ok after a miss-timed jump. Due to the ease of the gear there has definately been a change in attitude.

Ive had my kite rescued twice, and my board rescued mabe 8. These have all been due to equipment issues, i.e harness hook breaking, snapped leashes etc. I believe in paying it forward and have rescued over 50 boards and about 10 kites. I also pack down many kites that once they get to the waters edge there are other beachgoers around. Ive also talked many a guy through the self rescue in offshore conditions after I have saved their board.

As a kiter I dont take for granted that I can kite just about anywhere. Its "nancy boys" like eppo who have the perspective that any potential issues at a beach, a proactive perspective needs to be applied.

sir ROWDY
WA, 5353 posts
2 Sep 2013 6:22PM
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surfingboye said..

i towed a euro's kite in the other the other week.
i had been drifting for 5km before it got to me. no rider attached and out past 3 ft waves.
dragged it in and he came running down the beach 10 mins later.
thanked me etc.

so who would've let it drift past?

i reckon help anyone who needs it.
why be a dick?


^As any normal person would do...

I think the real question that's up in the air is rescuing people that don't urgently need it.
I mean I rescue anybody I see floating about obviously having trouble, but what happens when it gets super busy in summer and rescuing people potentially one after another could take up your entire session???... I'm not obliged to rescue anyones kite and if I do it's done out of courtesy for the rider and others on the water, however I'm not about to rescue 8 kiters (who don't really need assistance) in a row and waste my entire session.
If you're my mate I'm going to pull you in, but if I don't know you, you're fine and just happen to be floating over the other side of safety bay (or similar) I'm not going to drop everything just to pull your gear back to the beach.
Why should I waste my session to increase the length of your session??? Get my drift.

NoBS
WA, 908 posts
2 Sep 2013 6:39PM
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Not that rowdy cares but I agree with the above post 100%.

I mean if I see you going under and trying to climb the imaginary sea ladder then I will shoot on over and give you a helping hand.

If your off your board signalling for me to assist then sorry but you need to have a body drag. Same goes for kooks not self rescuing when they should because is all a bit too hard or they don't want to tangle their lines..

The only time I would assist 100% if if you were ripping and threw turbo kite loop and knocked yourself out. Most other scenarios you can get out of if you had half a brain. Too many people rush over and play the hero for noobs. They won't learn if they don't problem solve in the water.

eppo
WA, 9372 posts
2 Sep 2013 8:26PM
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Okay here goes again. (Deep breath)...Not that NoBs cares, but that makes sense to me as well.

,..although it does depend on where you are kiting as well. There are some local spots that I know if such and such happens then they could be in trouble if I don't do something.

I have been know to stalk crew, as they float downwind just to make sure, especially if I see them setting up and starting and can see they haven't a clue.

Gotta look out for each other hey.

waveslave
WA, 4263 posts
2 Sep 2013 9:06PM
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NoBS said..

Let em float, gives em time to problem solve.



lol. ^^^


I tried to mail NoBS.

I got this message from Seabreeze:

"Sorry, NoBS is currently on suspension and will not be able to read their mail."

Seabreeze is so retarded.

lol.

eppo
WA, 9372 posts
2 Sep 2013 9:28PM
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Figured you might email him waveslave. Lol....

Anyhow apart from his antics here his suspension may be attributed to his latest post on the windsurfing forum entitled 'How good is windsurfing??'

379 Posts - WA
NoBS

Awesomeness with a sail.. Hot birds and cool dudes.. There is no other sport that comes close.

shoodbegood

Had a good afternoon eh! Cool, that's what it's all about!

3798 Posts - VIC
Sailhack
1
Windsurfing - just when you think it can't possibly get better... it does!




Gotta give it to him he is a right sht Stirrer!! I don't think they realised they had a wolf in Sheeps clothing do you?

Subsonic
WA, 2963 posts
3 Sep 2013 7:31AM
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Sh!t stirring don't really work when you just rock up and make a comment bout how good windsurfing is, the people who replied probably just assumed he wind surfs as well, the rest of us just assume he's a nob.....

Oh wait....

eppo
WA, 9372 posts
3 Sep 2013 9:18AM
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He was baiting them though, only a matter of time. I feel sorry for the fellas replying with honest integrity about how much they love their sport, not knowing he was ...well being NoBs.

sir ROWDY
WA, 5353 posts
3 Sep 2013 5:48PM
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Pretty original, we should give him troll of the year award for such an excellent display of intellectual prowess.

eppo
WA, 9372 posts
3 Sep 2013 7:39PM
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NoBs crosses the line, but Farq he makes me laugh!!!

Peterc150
VIC, 710 posts
4 Sep 2013 11:27AM
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Don't feed the troll . . .

eppo
WA, 9372 posts
4 Sep 2013 10:53AM
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He's suspended, so not feeding anything...lol.

dave......
WA, 2119 posts
4 Sep 2013 10:56AM
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Gee eppo, that will"teach him a lesson", how are you able to post... Recess or something?

lostinlondon
VIC, 1159 posts
4 Sep 2013 1:11PM
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eppo said..

Looks like I finally agree with NoBs for once.

Let them float, but keep an eye on them. If after a while, you feel it could get dangerous, then you are duty bound to rescue.

Infact I'd say if this person died, was seriously injured i reckon a good lawyer could have your ass on a plate.

But nothing like a good long swim to wake some people up.


You're not actually duty bound (whether you think you are morally bound is another issue) to do anything - especially if you think going out to help could put you in further trouble. Best thing to do is call the rescue service. The laws of the high seas (rendering assistance) don't apply to us. In those instances a minimum amount of safety equipment is required to be carried by vessels and they can help out, even if it is just standing 100 m off and keeping note of the distressed vessel's position.

In fact, if you decide to render assistance, and then realise it's all too hard and decide to kite off, you put yourself in a worse position - in that instance, because you have decided to help, and established a duty of care. You could only kite back to shore if you were doing so to seek help or if the dude explicity said to you, "I'm OK, I don't need your help"

That said, keeping an eye on each other and helping out when we can is what has made this sport so good. It's all about striking a balance I guess. All of us (most of us) while learning have done something that has required a long swim or a packdown - it's part of the learning process.

And that brings me to my personal axe - being fit for the sport, which means being able to swim 2 - 3 km with no dramas.

eppo
WA, 9372 posts
4 Sep 2013 12:33PM
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Well you maybe right, but I'd like to hear from some lawyers with some case history examples on land and at sea to prove it.

I suppose calling sea rescue indeed would cover you, but if you just watched and cothe person was seriously injured/died and you couldn't prove that you could have at least done something, I still feel a decent lawyer could have your ass on a plate. But then again, that's only surmising as I'm not a lawyer.


and Dave....I had absolutely nothing to do with NoBs being suspended for the record. It was news to me as it was to everyone, through waveslave trying to email him, which is strange in itself?

lostinlondon
VIC, 1159 posts
4 Sep 2013 2:55PM
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This is from the Australian Resuscitation Council website.

http://www.resus.org.au/policy/guidelines/section_10/guideline-10-5-%20july-2012.pdf

DUTY TO RESCUE

"Good Samaritans" and Volunteers

A "Good Samaritan" is defined in legislation as a person acting without expecting financial or
other reward for providing assistance. Although jurisdictional differences exist, "Volunteers"
are generally (circuitously) defined as a member of a Volunteer organization performing
voluntary community work.

Lay persons or Volunteers acting as "Good Samaritans" are under no legal obligation to assist
a fellow being, that is, they have no legal "duty to rescue." However, uniquely, in The
Northern Territory, persons are required by Statute law to render assistance to any other in
need.

Having decided to assist however, a standard of care appropriate to their training (or lack of
training) is expected. Generally speaking, that standard is low. Rescuers need not fear
litigation if they come to the aid of a fellow human in need. No "Good Samaritan" or
"Volunteer" in Australia, or probably elsewhere, has ever been successfully sued for
consequences of rendering assistance to a person in need. Indeed, legal protection is
provided.

All Australian States and Territories have enacted Statutes which provide some measure of
protection for the "Good Samaritan" and/or the "Volunteer." Guideline 10.5 Page 2 of 7
July 2012

They are required to act at least with good faith and without recklessness. In New South
Wales and Queensland the Good Samaritan or Volunteer is required to act with reasonable
care and skill to a standard which is in fact no different from the common law standard which
pre-dated the legislation. Volunteers must however, act within the scope of activity of their
organisation and according to instruction of the organisation. Organisations which control
the Volunteer however, are generally not afforded the same protection for the actions of their
Volunteers.

The standard of care required of a person who has a duty of care to respond, is higher. Like
other persons in our community who hold themselves out to have a skill, they must perform
their tasks to a standard expected of a reasonably competent person with their training and
experience. However, this does not mean a standard of care of the highest level.

eppo
WA, 9372 posts
4 Sep 2013 2:06PM
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Lay persons or Volunteers acting as "Good Samaritans" are under no legal obligation to assist a fellow being, that is, they have no legal "duty to rescue."


well there you go

magicseal
25 posts
4 Sep 2013 2:39PM
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Haha, an interesting read for sure.

What I find odd is that we are talking about societies law.

How could any one sleep knowing they could have helped,

instead choosing to read the headlines the day after.





would you introduce yourself to the family the day after,

as they lay a flower in the water.



eppo
WA, 9372 posts
4 Sep 2013 3:18PM
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Okay take someone who has kited for more than 10 years....

could you be considered a lay person still? What about someone with an instructors certificate...a bronze medallion...

Is there a definition of a 'lay person'? of volunteer?

lostinlondon
VIC, 1159 posts
5 Sep 2013 10:22AM
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eppo said..

Okay take someone who has kited for more than 10 years....

could you be considered a lay person still? What about someone with an instructors certificate...a bronze medallion...

Is there a definition of a 'lay person'? of volunteer?



Seriously. Did you read the excerpt I posted above? It clearly defines these things in the first paragraph.

lostinlondon
VIC, 1159 posts
5 Sep 2013 10:41AM
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magicseal said..

Haha, an interesting read for sure.

What I find odd is that we are talking about societies law.

How could any one sleep knowing they could have helped,

instead choosing to read the headlines the day after.





would you introduce yourself to the family the day after,

as they lay a flower in the water.





Well, what you are talking about is Moral Duty, and that varies according to your own circumstances and morals. That can't be legislated. What if you saw all this going on, went out to help (despite not being properly trained for such a thing) - the guy panics and knocks you out/hold you down, or you get tangled up in his gear. Meanwhile someone has called rescue from the shore. By the time rescue has arrived, you've drowned but the other guy (who may have put himself in the situation through his own stupidity, lack of experience or even blatant ignorance of advice from others on shore before going out) is safe and sound. You've got a couple of young kids and a partner. Is he going to lay a flower for you? Cases of rescuers getting in to more trouble than the person caught out are not uncommon.

I'm probably sounding like a cold bastard but everyone should be able to make their own risk assessment for situations like this. Outcomes are often far wider in implication than just the immediate people involved.

eppo
WA, 9372 posts
5 Sep 2013 9:04AM
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Look I agree with you, just looking at some different angles.

Remember one time I was surfing at thunder bay with my bro and another mate. Was way to big to hold the swell and the current was downright dangerous. I came in, didn't trust it.

As my bro came in his leg rope snapped and he was sucked up and around heading for that inescapable part of the ocean between thunder bay and south point in about 10 foot of swell!

Now this is my brother and we always look after each other, but I had to make the horrible decision of not going in as I would to be in serious danger. So I ran to the top of the point and borrowed a phone and called sea rescue. By now my other mate had paddled across but the seas were so huge they couldn't even see each other three metres away.

They took turns trying to paddle in, just as they were about to make they were sucked out again and they and me thought it was all over, but luckily a massive wave came in and they both jumped on the board and somehow made the drop and were washed onto the shoreline rocks.

Never seen two people more exhausted with fear of death in their eyes, they didn't speak for about an hour.

Anyhow as I said I agree with you.

And as far as your definition proclamation ...well any definition is not fact, it has shades of grey that can be argued with any good lawyer. You cannot claim to know definitely the situation by posting up such a policy and maintain your position is 100 percent accurate, that's naive.

magicseal
25 posts
5 Sep 2013 9:09AM
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Select to expand quote
lostinlondon said..

magicseal said..

Haha, an interesting read for sure.

What I find odd is that we are talking about societies law.

How could any one sleep knowing they could have helped,

instead choosing to read the headlines the day after.





would you introduce yourself to the family the day after,

as they lay a flower in the water.





Well, what you are talking about is Moral Duty, and that varies according to your own circumstances and morals. That can't be legislated. What if you saw all this going on, went out to help (despite not being properly trained for such a thing) - the guy panics and knocks you out/hold you down, or you get tangled up in his gear. Meanwhile someone has called rescue from the shore. By the time rescue has arrived, you've drowned but the other guy (who may have put himself in the situation through his own stupidity, lack of experience or even blatant ignorance of advice from others on shore before going out) is safe and sound. You've got a couple of young kids and a partner. Is he going to lay a flower for you? Cases of rescuers getting in to more trouble than the person caught out are not uncommon.

I'm probably sounding like a cold bastard but everyone should be able to make their own risk assessment for situations like this. Outcomes are often far wider in implication than just the immediate people involved.



Lostinlondon, I hear you and totally agree with what your saying.

Fact is you could help by either physically going out to be the hero(and take your chances)

or simply making the appropriate phone call to authorities,

Either way.

stabber
NSW, 1114 posts
5 Sep 2013 3:04PM
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Some ppl are too stupid to live, I told a noob that he should take his kite down in a howling offshorey a few years ago.....he just said "no problem mate" and ended up with a broken rib, and a trip to hospital about 10 minutes after.....did I help him after his initial response? well what do you think?
I just watched and smirked.
Don't listen then Fluck you!

brooksy
WA, 498 posts
7 Jan 2014 4:24PM
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Last weekend, beach 3, in 2hrs one person lost his kite and one self-rescued which resulted in Cockburn cement shutting off their sand pump. Then the rescue chopper flew over, timing seemed to suggest someone called in a lost kiter, probably as their kite washed up in Coogee.

Was good to see both got help from different kiters.

Was disappointing to see that both of these should have been able to water relaunch. They were definitely relaunchable at the time of the initial crash.

If you can't relaunch you're own kite, don't kite off shore winds and start practicing!

Flat water may look nice at Beach 3 but consequences are pretty bad if you can't relaunch. Destroyed kite or worse.

seafever17
WA, 360 posts
7 Jan 2014 9:56PM
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surfingboye said..

i towed a euro's kite in the other the other week.
i had been drifting for 5km before it got to me. no rider attached and out past 3 ft waves.
dragged it in and he came running down the beach 10 mins later.
thanked me etc.

so who would've let it drift past?

i reckon help anyone who needs it.
why be a dick?


I agree. Help everyone you can. Grab boards and drop them off if some one is struggling to find it.
Check on people if a kites been down a while.

I prefer my karma kitty to be overflowing as experience tells me I am about to do something dumb myself

Hop
QLD, 87 posts
9 Jan 2014 11:08PM
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I agree with paying it forward. I was told that I was a dickhead and needed to change things some 9 yeas ago and because I listened to people with more knowledge and dropped my ego I survived and now very directly advise other dickheads how not to hurt themselves or others. I will always interfere to help and I hope that you guys who see your selves as super kiters have the humility to do the same for your sport / lifestyle.

tungsten
43 posts
9 Jan 2014 11:29PM
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Hop said..

I agree with paying it forward. I was told that I was a dickhead and needed to change things some 9 yeas ago and because I listened to people with more knowledge and dropped my ego I survived and now very directly advise other dickheads how not to hurt themselves or others. I will always interfere to help and I hope that you guys who see your selves as super kiters have the humility to do the same for your sport / lifestyle.


Yup. Give the guy a hand, explain what he could do better and show it to him, and as a result, one more educated kiter is around passing it on. In the mountains / wildlife / sea, you just help without asking questions. If the the person in trouble is a dickhead, you let him know, but you still help. I can't believe this is even being discussed.



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