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Overview of safety systems

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Created by WeirdEd > 9 months ago, 24 Sep 2013
sir ROWDY
WA, 5353 posts
28 Sep 2013 9:25AM
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Why don't we just attach a lethal injection type device straight into the heart of every kiter and give the poleys the remote, so when they decide any subject on the water has done something wrong they can terminate the offender.

Puetz
NT, 2172 posts
28 Sep 2013 12:16PM
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Chris6791 said..
waveslave said..



Puetz said..



we just got to think outside the box.







What's say ....



You could instantly deflate the leading edge at the flick of a switch ?



Transform a rigid powered beast into a flaccid rag ...



at the push of a button,



at the shift of a lever.





Just thinking ....





Never in my life did I think I would agree with Waveslave on anything but this idea has some merit. Could a small device be designed to fit over an inflate/deflate valve that on receipt of a signal releases the valve? The remote need only be the size of a garage remote and can clip onto a harness or strapped to a kiters wrist like a watch. And at the kite end it surely can be designed to weigh only one or two hundred grams and be designed to be retrofitted to the few valve types out there? It might need a little bit of mods to the kite like a sewn in sleeve or Velcro pad to support it?

Can be self activated or activated by others? If you have pinched off a couple of struts on set-up the kite will still afford some buoyancy after.

Or a sawn-off .410 strapped to your leg might also work...


... what about same device but line cutter instead... cuts all but one right at the kite?????

knotwindy
42 posts
28 Sep 2013 11:10AM
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OK, since most of the problems seem to happen on or near land how about this for a safety system

when you are on or near shore, let go of your board and
put one hand on the release

so if you even think you might need it, just use it

i know this is really complicated but i'll bet even kiters could manage this

end of rant

ice
VIC, 219 posts
28 Sep 2013 1:22PM
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knotwindy said..

OK, since most of the problems seem to happen on or near land how about this for a safety system

when you are on or near shore, let go of your board and
put one hand on the release

so if you even think you might need it, just use it

i know this is really complicated but i'll bet even kiters could manage this

end of rant


too complicated

ffifty5
VIC, 102 posts
28 Sep 2013 1:32PM
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Has anybody thought of a quick release for the rear flying lines built into the bar. Operate a QR on the bar to release both rear lines. That could be a "standard" SAFETY FEATURE mandated by law to be on all bars.

ffifty5
VIC, 102 posts
28 Sep 2013 1:49PM
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And with a suitably big label "PULL TO RELEASE" for bystanders or rescuers to quickly comprehend.

Chris6791
WA, 3271 posts
28 Sep 2013 12:41PM
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Line cutters won't work Puetz I did think about that, for an unbridled kite you would need 4, a bridled kite, who knows how many. A line cutter will only work below the bar and we have a QR for that.

And QR on the rear lines at the bar ffifty, there are flaws in that too.
I think that end of the rig needs to be left clean to minimise lines getting caught around the end of the bar, and to some degree it is made redundant by having the more effective QR only inches away. It would need to release both rear lines at the instant otherwise the kite might go even more nuts before you can pull the second one. And it won't work at all if the kite has already looped several times and the lines are twisted and bound up into one rope.

Unless someone can come up with something totally out of the box I think the current primary QR and leash QR are the best options, we just need to be more willing to pull them in an instant. Trying to design a system to allow someone else to pull the QR is inherently flawed, if you can't pull it yourself you are already seriously injured or worse.

Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
28 Sep 2013 2:47PM
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Chris6791 said..

if you can't pull it yourself you are already seriously injured or worse.

I think the system needs to release automatically by itself when all the parameters are lined up because as we have seen many times when the chain of events lines up the operator is unable to "pull it himself"
Being bounced along a beach or a parking lot at lightning speed possibly with a head injury already it's just asking too much to have the strength, dexterity or quick thinking to manually release, it's possible the G forces make it humanly impossible. It happens too quick and can be over in an instant.

Puetz
NT, 2172 posts
29 Sep 2013 11:56AM
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Chris6791 said..
Line cutters won't work Puetz I did think about that, for an unbridled kite you would need 4, a bridled kite, who knows how many. A line cutter will only work below the bar and we have a QR for that.

And QR on the rear lines at the bar ffifty, there are flaws in that too.

I think that end of the rig needs to be left clean to minimise lines getting caught around the end of the bar, and to some degree it is made redundant by having the more effective QR only inches away. It would need to release both rear lines at the instant otherwise the kite might go even more nuts before you can pull the second one. And it won't work at all if the kite has already looped several times and the lines are twisted and bound up into one rope.

Unless someone can come up with something totally out of the box I think the current primary QR and leash QR are the best options, we just need to be more willing to pull them in an instant. Trying to design a system to allow someone else to pull the QR is inherently flawed, if you can't pull it yourself you are already seriously injured or worse.


... ok cool, I actuallly meant line cutters at the connection points and not 'on' the kite aka bridle or pig tails. Anyway, maybe they should be a line cutter or rather line release on the bar ends but still, as we all agree, it needs to be automatic and not a rider input somehow.

I totally agree, we all need to be 'more' willing to pull the safety in an instant!

cheers,

Robbie

iandvnt
QLD, 581 posts
29 Sep 2013 3:39PM
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The development of bow kites and related safety systems while for sure saving lives on one hand are also responsible for taking them, and a lot of that has to do with commercial bull5hit marketing claims involving kite safety /depower etc of companies kites. Attitudes of riders today at the beach are sooo different to 5- 10 years ago. There is a generation of riders emerging right now that I talk to that have absolutely no clue of so many potential hazards.

They also read complete bull5hit like the public IKA written reports (written by Markus) from the olympic report to isaf/ ioc that tried and failed to con their way into the olympics at the expense of windsurfing parents emailing me at the time asking if it is true that kiting is suitable for their 10 year olds and checking that it is as safe for them as their windsurfing. Now I am not not against youth kiting whatsoever, and I am certainly not a safety guy if you know what i am into, but when the report says ???Safety issues are slightly different for kiteboarding??? (from sailing /windsurfing) you gotta wonder what is going through their sellout clueless heads.

some more representation of kiteboarding by IKA

???There have been safety issues in the past which have been overcome since approx eight years.???
???There is no difference to standard sailing regattas in respect of numbers of boats, marks etc, no additional resources or facilities are needed.???
"Kites flag out when releasing safety system (???kite will have no more power whatsoever???)
???Although kiteboarding accidents still happen, they are rare.???
???It is no more dangerous than any other sport.???


Ultimately I like the concept of personal responsibility, - unfortunatley $$$$ profit driven losers have seen corruption/lobbying of this crap and as a kiteboarder with no commercial affiliation to any kiteboarding related business right now I don't look at the kiteboard industry like I used to back when nearly everyone kept it real.

I'll start on some of the kite companies next with their some of their bull**** marketing from last few years regarding depower/ safety systems, but gotta get to beach right now tho.

I took some time to independently lobby the IOC and ISAF last year with regards to the IKA , I had no conflicts of interest , and when I look back at it I am sooooo stoked i went to the trouble- sticking up for kiteboarders and keeping it real. One day I will publish some emails/messages I received/kept at the time and I won't be the one embarrassed!




PRAWNDOG
WA, 306 posts
29 Sep 2013 3:23PM
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This thread is getting ridicules. Accidents happen in every sport you don't see motor bikes getting designed with self deployed cocoon air bags which deploy and surround the rider if the on board safety computer thinks an accident is imminent, yet how many people have died on motor bikes around the world compared to kite surfing accidents, (a completely different sport/vehicle, I know but you get my point). I'm all for safety and learning from the mistakes from the past but come on people keep it logical, kite surfing is an extreme sport we take risks everyday. Perhaps people should educate themselves on weather patterns and behaviour so you can make educated decisions on equipment choice, locations, or feasibility of going out in the first place, like people have already said on here. Personally I feel the safety systems on modern day kites is good (maybe just needs some small tweaking like standardised realises and a release for the harness), put it this way I feel a hell of allot more safe on my kite, than I do riding my dirt bike around the bush with my mates, thats just me.

^^^ would be interesting to see some actual stats on kitesurfing accidents compared to sailing and windsurfing, not having a crack at you iandvnt genuinely curious to see some sort of comparison. Also I would of thought windsurfing, sailing and kitesurfing all have different safety issues (hazards), as all involve different types of equipment, even tho they all are wind powered devices (I'm confused).

Cheers

sir ROWDY
WA, 5353 posts
29 Sep 2013 4:21PM
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I still think lethal injection regulators are sounding like the most plausible idea so far.

iandvnt
QLD, 581 posts
29 Sep 2013 6:31PM
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Interesting cos i met an top kiwi fmxer at the beach after a session that showed up with a friend that kited and he told me he was scared ****less of the idea of kiting, and me - i'm scared ****less on a motorcross bike.

Way more dangerous driving to the beach of course.

Quite a few deaths windsurfing from heart attacks etc so stats are hard to get accurate, the person collecting them must also not have a conflict of interest also, which they often do. Ultimately kites are wings with upward lift force capability that windsurfing or sailing do not have which is why kiters are known as pilots not helmsman, this unfortunately is often the factor that results in bad accidents. Also windsurfers do not get stuck in deathloops, get stuck together, start/stop their session on land or have the capability to fly 40 foot upwards or sideways in one second off flat water/land by moving one arm 25cm (high winds that would be...)


Education is the key and it is so cool that everyone can share their opinions/experiences to learn from here. I don't think kiting has super risk attached to it, but it deserves some considerable respect.

I am pretty open to even wacky ideas when brainstorming cos without these kind of thinkers kiteboarding would not exist.

I just got back from a session all chilled and read my last post -pretty harsh... lol



PRAWNDOG
WA, 306 posts
29 Sep 2013 4:34PM
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lol





terminal
1421 posts
29 Sep 2013 5:38PM
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Has quite a few auto-features.

eppo
WA, 9372 posts
29 Sep 2013 6:09PM
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iandvnt said...
The development of bow kites and related safety systems while for sure saving lives on one hand are also responsible for taking them, and a lot of that has to do with commercial bull5hit marketing claims involving kite safety /depower etc of companies kites. Attitudes of riders today at the beach are sooo different to 5- 10 years ago. There is a generation of riders emerging right now that I talk to that have absolutely no clue of so many potential hazards.






I have to agree with last statement and add I think we have all got a bit complacent especially some of the crew like myself who started on two line foils then the C kites then got the bows and went wow we can handle anything now!! I have seen a growing number of kiters during winter months and I have on occasions thought there may be problems on the horizon.

Chris6791
WA, 3271 posts
29 Sep 2013 7:38PM
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PRAWNDOG said..

This thread is getting ridicules. Accidents happen in every sport you don't see motor bikes getting designed with self deployed cocoon air bags which deploy and surround the rider if the on board safety computer thinks an accident is imminent, yet how many people have died on motor bikes around the world compared to kite surfing accidents, (a completely different sport/vehicle, I know but you get my point). I'm all for safety and learning from the mistakes from the past but come on people keep it logical, kite surfing is an extreme sport we take risks everyday.


There is nothing wrong with some discussion on it. Arguably all this thread has achieved is highlighting that there are not many practical options out there other than pulling the QR early. Which isn't a bad thing.

And along with the air jacket thingy Terminal posted, don't Honda have a massive airbag in the Goldwings now? Sooner or later it will filter down to smaller bikes. So self deployed cocoon airbags are coming for bikes

PRAWNDOG
WA, 306 posts
29 Sep 2013 7:41PM
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Just remember you heard it here first

dogfish
NT, 253 posts
29 Sep 2013 10:52PM
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Hey.
What about a DUI-style ignition lock -
CPU on the inflate valve that factors in weather, hazards & pilot IQ.
With a sudoku & cryptic crossword.
If you're too stupid to figure it out, you can't blow the thing up.

Puetz
NT, 2172 posts
30 Sep 2013 8:58AM
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dogfish said..
Hey.What about a DUI-style ignition lock -

CPU on the inflate valve that factors in weather, hazards & pilot IQ.

With a sudoku & cryptic crossword.

If you're too stupid to figure it out, you can't blow the thing up.


... then I'd never get go kiting!

Kraut
WA, 542 posts
30 Sep 2013 11:25AM
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As most of the accidents happen on the beach, what about limiting the beach to pumping up and launching kites only. Whereas when coming back in one has to (law) flag out (and maybe remotely deflate the kite once this idea became reality) and collect all equipment on the water and then entering the beach, pack up and leave. That will ensure that 1. We have to flag out hence remember how it works which will helpin emergency situations and 2. Ensure every kiter know how to swim (not kidding, I had to rescue terrible swimmer with his kite once back in Botany Bay) and 3. Reduce the numberof kiters as some might be afraid of sharks and stay home, finally 4. Less people on the beach trying to run into each other or gettting their kites tangled for the sake of exchanging the latest marketing horse**** thrown at them at high price.

Sorry, I agree this discussion is good and maybe productive but definitely raises awareness about this sport still being an extreme sport and risk reduction is possible but risk elimination is not.

dogfish
NT, 253 posts
1 Oct 2013 3:16AM
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Puetz said..

... then I'd never get go kiting!


Nah. Yours is a twist top

captainKel
WA, 18 posts
11 Oct 2013 11:18PM
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So, today I was out on a fab Perth river session and decided to test my quick release. It is a good system, I have used it twice under duress. Once after getting smashed in the waves where I had to let go both safetys, once when I ran out of water and ended up face planted on the beach... Very similar circumstances that lead to the death of coldshot.

The safety has always worked smoothly, easy release under load, regularly tested, always works.

Today it FAILED! Riding a 10, nicely powered in just above 20kn, I tried to release and nothing happened. I tried 3 times and eventually managed to release but not quickly.

I haven't kited for 6 months due to injury, and was out having an epic time, I expected the safety to work and was very surprised when the chicken loop wouldn't release.

Cause of failure...stupidity...I.e. my failure to check the safety thoroughly before getting on the water.

Afte 6 months no kiting, a very small amount of corrosion formed on the release mechanism, which prevented it from releasing.

Be safe, check yours.

dafish
NSW, 1631 posts
12 Oct 2013 9:04AM
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Every pilot goes through an extensive checklist before he even powers up his craft. There are double checks, and communication with others, whether in the tower, or co pilot. Only when all systems are checked off, the craft is powered up. Then there is another set of checklists. This is why flying is one of the safest forms of travel by far. Every kiter should adopt this attitude, especially when conditions are not ideal, and they are kiting new places. Checking your release before lift off should be standard practice....see above^.
As an instructor I drill the three steps into my students from the minute I start working with them and make them practice it so the muscle memory begins to develop.
1. let go of the bar
2. pull safety to flag kite
3. ditch the kite

I say it over and over and over and over.

When I started kiting I had, and still have, enormous respect for the wind and how things can change rapidly. I am a long time waterman, 45 years plus, and I don't take anything for granted. I watched every kitemare video and learned what not to do, and what I might have done to avoid the accident. Through practice, both physical and mental, the action of releasing the kite is automatic. I didn't start with two line kites, or old c kites, but I started with a healthy fear and respect. With greater skills and understanding, I hold on tightly to the respect.
Look, I am no hero, but I do go pretty hard. However, I always assess my out strategy. And though I care about my kites, I care about myself and my family more.

knotwindy
42 posts
12 Oct 2013 8:35AM
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ok, so out side the box
what if the stopper ball or V or Y or whatever the bar rests against when you let go has a spring and pressure reading setup and if the pressure gets too high against it, the chicken loop releases automatically.
so if you are getting dragged with the bar out against the stops it would release but if you were boosting or looping with the bar pulled in, it would not. If you have the bar in your hands and control, it could not activate but
if you are getting yarded and let go of the bar and out of control and the forces got high enough, it would activate automatically

maybe? any thoughts

suface2air
QLD, 701 posts
12 Oct 2013 12:42PM
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I like your idea knotwindy good even have like a landing pin clip that you remove on your way in let say near the beach not jumping or poping going to land your kite time you pull this pin(has a big yellow high visablity handel on it) and the auto release is engaged but isn't activated till there is pressure on it and this pressure will be really light . lets say just enough to allow the kite to fly with slow movement any more load than this it releases automatically to a flaging line . your idea is great but when say out the back and have a big wipe out wont engage the release accendently but now I think more about it if you that big of wipe out maybe it should release out there to . I take all this back your idea ROCKS . Now which company guna build it .

Kamikuza
QLD, 6493 posts
12 Oct 2013 1:53PM
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captainKel said..

So, today I was out on a fab Perth river session and decided to test my quick release. It is a good system, I have used it twice under duress. Once after getting smashed in the waves where I had to let go both safetys, once when I ran out of water and ended up face planted on the beach... Very similar circumstances that lead to the death of coldshot.

The safety has always worked smoothly, easy release under load, regularly tested, always works.

Today it FAILED! Riding a 10, nicely powered in just above 20kn, I tried to release and nothing happened. I tried 3 times and eventually managed to release but not quickly.

I haven't kited for 6 months due to injury, and was out having an epic time, I expected the safety to work and was very surprised when the chicken loop wouldn't release.

Cause of failure...stupidity...I.e. my failure to check the safety thoroughly before getting on the water.

Afte 6 months no kiting, a very small amount of corrosion formed on the release mechanism, which prevented it from releasing.

Be safe, check yours.

What bar?

KiteBud
WA, 1515 posts
12 Oct 2013 12:00PM
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Been following this thread for a while...if I had to summarize the most useful and relevant information I gathered so far:

-Get familiar with the way your safety system works by activating the Quick-Release in flight for training purposes. Repeat this process until it becomes fully automatic. Learn how to retrieve your kite afterwards i.e. Emergency self-landing



-Regularly rinse, inspect and TEST the quick release mechanism to ensure smooth operation

-Never hesitate to use your safety system(s), it should always be a first response in case of problems.

-Kite brands should work towards a standardization of safety systems and only market products that pass rigorous safety standards (E.g. French Norm saucisseman.free.fr/norme_en.htm).

I hope the recent tragedy helps kiters of any skill level to realize the importance of becoming safety experts to help reduce accidents.

I also hope this helps kite instructors to become more thorough with safety during lessons. From my observations over the last few years, too many students are leaving their lessons with insufficient training in regards to safety. Seeing students activate the safety system only ONCE in the course of 6-8 hours of lessons and doing a single self-rescue simulation (or often just a demo from the instructor himself) in shallow waters are unfortunately common practices in the industry...

captainKel
WA, 18 posts
12 Oct 2013 8:47PM
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Select to expand quote
Kamikuza said..

captainKel said..

So, today I was out on a fab Perth river session and decided to test my quick release. It is a good system, I have used it twice under duress. Once after getting smashed in the waves where I had to let go both safetys, once when I ran out of water and ended up face planted on the beach... Very similar circumstances that lead to the death of coldshot.

The safety has always worked smoothly, easy release under load, regularly tested, always works.

Today it FAILED! Riding a 10, nicely powered in just above 20kn, I tried to release and nothing happened. I tried 3 times and eventually managed to release but not quickly.

I haven't kited for 6 months due to injury, and was out having an epic time, I expected the safety to work and was very surprised when the chicken loop wouldn't release.

Cause of failure...stupidity...I.e. my failure to check the safety thoroughly before getting on the water.

Afte 6 months no kiting, a very small amount of corrosion formed on the release mechanism, which prevented it from releasing.

Be safe, check yours.

What bar?




The bar is from Switch Kites, seems to be a very similar safety system to the North bar. It is usually very easy to release under load and has worked seamlessly in the past. Upon closer inspection today, static load over time had worn a very small groove into the metal plate that the release slides out from. It created just enough friction to prevent a smooth release. I've been at it today with a small file and some steel wool, and it is working sweetly again.

Kamikuza
QLD, 6493 posts
12 Oct 2013 11:14PM
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Yeah, good looking system that Switch bar - like the North unit but 1/2 the price or so!
Interesting to hear of the failure and its method... have you told Switch?



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"Overview of safety systems" started by WeirdEd