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Axis ART take off technique / setup

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Created by goldenbreeze 3 months ago, 5 Nov 2022
goldenbreeze
5 posts
5 Nov 2022 7:44PM
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Recently acquired an axis art 1099 with the advance ultrashort fuse and the 375p rear wing. Have the ak phazer v2 110l to go with that, and I am a 96kg rider. Have winged for about 6months, foilgybes, footswaps - no tacks yet. All on a 2000cm2 low aspect foil.

Swapped it out for this combo - wanted speed and glide. Tried this setup the other day. Foilmast in the middle of the tracks, and just building up the boardspeed - no leg pumps just arms.
i did manage to get a few long rides in after succesfully taking off but in most cases the foil would come screaming up on take off and crash (stall) down hard. Luckily the board handles those touchdowns really well.

I know from a l physics point of view that those HA wings don't like a big AOA - it causes them to stall earlier. From others I've heard that this foil requires a gradual takeoff. Anyway - I understand that my technique needs tweaking.
From other reviews about this AK board I hear they've shimmed the mast to help take off. Don't really wanna be screwing around with shims and stuff. Next session I'll probably try to move it more back in the tracks. Any tips as to what I can improve on - technique and setup-wise? Would be good to get some pointers.

BigSeppo
118 posts
5 Nov 2022 8:44PM
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Sounds like you really understand the principles and sounds like you are doing things right.

My guess is you are doing what most people do coming from a 2000cm low aspect to something like a 1099...

The 2000cm kicks up onto foil easily with a little tail pop and cruises relatively slowly and politely. Foils like the 1099 go far faster, as you know.

My guess / suggestion to change your technique would be to NOT try to take off at all...

Instead put body weight forward keeping the nose down and gaining even more board speed than you think by working the sail with short quick pumps. Don't think in any way of "popping up". Be willing to go downwind a father distance than your old foil to get up. Your new foil will point farther upwind once up on foil to make up the lost ground.

After you get that take off down, you will later be able to have a subtle pop that will get you going a bit earlier. But it's subtle and more of pushing down on the front foot than the powerful popping up on a 200cm low aspect foil.

So basically, lean forward to hold it down, don't have any foot pop whatsoever as you learn it, and get way more board speed.

Consider a sail size larger to make getting that board speed easier as you get the technique down. Then once you get it you will be good. You can reduce the sail size and add a little (but different) foot pump later.

I could be wrong. But this costs zero to try and is very common going from big low aspect to a seriously high aspect that's nearly half the size.

Steven F
NSW, 55 posts
6 Nov 2022 8:52AM
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Yep get board moving as fast as possible before takeoff.

Pump board by lifting front foot. Front foot straps help. No front foot pumping till up to speed.

Get board off water but stay low till and pump only sail till up to speed.

Play with mast position so front foot does not move after takeoff.

Once you are use to the new flight envelope you will never have a problem again.

Step down the size of rear wing as you improve to make it turn better.

rgmacca
324 posts
6 Nov 2022 8:06AM
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I know exactly what you mean. I moved on to the HPS series with same results.
Can only reiterate what is said above. I like to go with power in the wing as its easier to bear off and gain speed with a level board. I have also got In the habit of having both feet further forward and ease back once on foil (bad habit I guess).

its a lot easier running with the swell as gain speed quicker. just a diff technique to learn, but the feeling on foil is so worth it.

goldenbreeze
5 posts
6 Nov 2022 4:45PM
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Had a session yesterday in marginal conditions.
Thanks for all tips. The short pumps combined with a focus on boardspeed and not trying to foil was great advice. Did some long runs and the first foiling gybe on the thing. I feel like it needs much more front foot pressure for turns. Guess that's another habit I need to master again

JohnnyTsunami
125 posts
7 Nov 2022 12:14AM
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I tried this foil the other day after riding 800 and smaller 10AR wings and it was a dog. Felt like I couldn't stall it unless I was going backwards almost. Also felt mega draggy. Turning was a nightmare. That said I will ride this when I get into downwinders and want to dock start. My buddy and I switched boards and he got going right away on my 600cm foil and I was struggling with this monster.
Just an FYI if you are coming from larger low AR stuff and got this thinking it was small given the area- the giant high AR wings are a handful and sort of in their own category. The benefits really appear more in the sub 90cm width foils given the same 10AR.

The good news is your skills will translate to the smaller high AR wings quite easily.

warwickl
NSW, 2010 posts
7 Nov 2022 6:56AM
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I agree with the advices provided however, add this;
While gaining board speed I unweight both feet equally maintaing a level board. The action is small jumps and sometimes both my feet leave the board. I unweight as I pull down on the wing.

Grantmac
1707 posts
7 Nov 2022 6:01AM
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Select to expand quote
JohnnyTsunami said..
I tried this foil the other day after riding 800 and smaller 10AR wings and it was a dog. Felt like I couldn't stall it unless I was going backwards almost. Also felt mega draggy. Turning was a nightmare. That said I will ride this when I get into downwinders and want to dock start. My buddy and I switched boards and he got going right away on my 600cm foil and I was struggling with this monster.
Just an FYI if you are coming from larger low AR stuff and got this thinking it was small given the area- the giant high AR wings are a handful and sort of in their own category. The benefits really appear more in the sub 90cm width foils given the same 10AR.

The good news is your skills will translate to the smaller high AR wings quite easily.


It's not the width, it's the thickness and anhedral. ARTs are some of the thickest foils in production. Definitely the thickest HA.

Dcharlton
254 posts
7 Nov 2022 6:31AM
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Just had a GREAT sesh on the 999 today winging. Yes, these do have that tendency, try to keep your wait forward, they don't like it when you but back foot pressure on as they tend to lift and crash on takeoff.

Also experiment with mast track positioning both forward and backward to help balance out. My sense is, these things were meant to be pumped and like to be pumped with forward drive so keep that in mind when you're taking off and transitioning. I really love the ART and I think Axis absolutely nailed the design. Have fun!

DC

Emmett
NSW, 34 posts
9 Nov 2022 5:43PM
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As mentioned already but in different words: Put the mast back enough in the tracks, and/or shim the base/board angle, to bring the foil up much more gradually. If it does come up a little early then press the front down, and keep the board skimming fast. With enough speed then pop yourself up with gentle rear-to-front foot presses, timed with big sail pumps. On take off, keep pumping the sail (to go fwd and not up), but be gentle on the foil (AoA). If you have a board shape that cannot easily surface skim, then replace it. They literally suck.

If you need lotsa front foot pressure when you are up and accelerating, then consider changes to your stabiliser. Try a shim on the stab so it doesn't pull down so much, or try a stab foil with a more symmetrical cross section shape - to try compensate for the substantially asymmetrical shape of the ART front foil.

broVan
86 posts
9 Nov 2022 10:57PM
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That advance fuse isn't going to make things easier in the beginning. You don't need to shim anything. Its you. You are coming right off of a completely different foil setup to a highly evolved performance foil. Your brain will re-wire itself to ART mode within a few sessions. You will begin to see the world as a better, happier, glidey-er place. At first this new found happiness will help your marriage improve. But then, you will realize that you need one of each size ART and a few more tailwings, fuses, and a skinnier displacement hull board to maintain your buzz. You have now become a Drag Whore and there is no going back. Bring thou wallet.

rgmacca
324 posts
10 Nov 2022 5:48AM
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Select to expand quote
broVan said..
That advance fuse isn't going to make things easier in the beginning. You don't need to shim anything. Its you. You are coming right off of a completely different foil setup to a highly evolved performance foil. Your brain will re-wire itself to ART mode within a few sessions. You will begin to see the world as a better, happier, glidey-er place. At first this new found happiness will help your marriage improve. But then, you will realize that you need one of each size ART and a few more tailwings, fuses, and a skinnier displacement hull board to maintain your buzz. You have now become a Drag Whore and there is no going back. Bring thou wallet.


Haha sounds about right.
what does a skinny displacement hull board look like, Dave Kalama shapes? interested as looking at building a board to suit HA foils. thanks.

saltwaterwine
NSW, 32 posts
12 Nov 2022 7:06PM
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Select to expand quote
quote
what does a skinny displacement hull board look like, Dave Kalama shapes? interested as looking at building a board to suit HA foils. thanks.


Some 8'0" examples and my yellow 6'5".















Donathon
12 posts
25 Nov 2022 10:23PM
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Yes I went through the same and have since learned there are two types of "Take Offs" Passive and Active. Active by means of pumping the board and wing at the same time, mainly done this when on the low aspect foils. Then when I switched to AXIS HPS these foils require more of a Passive take off, flat bottom board, bear off more board speed by small pumps of the wing if required, then like a plane they will just lift with speed, if you try to quick you will get the porpoising effect and dive back down. Sounds like you have actually got it nailed already.

MrFish
53 posts
4 Dec 2022 4:52AM
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One little addition to the rest of this advice, I find purposely travelling across the wind while gaining board speed before bearing off to get the lift onto the foil is the easiest technique. If you bear off too soon without forward momentum it will come up onto the foil too quick and stall dropping you like a stone.

goldenbreeze
5 posts
17 Jan 2023 12:12AM
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Just a quick update on this, for anyone that's interested in the board/foil setup. Most recently I have been running with the stock Axis shim on the rear. Roper says that when you're over 85kg, you should. Found it much easier to control in the gybes.

I have also been adviced to use a base plate shim with this specific board. Other axis riders have had good results. Has to do with the board's rocker.
std starboard base plate shim works.

I'm running the foil quite forward in the box, using the ultrashort advanced fuse. Keep you posted on how I go with the base shim.

patronus
156 posts
17 Jan 2023 4:57PM
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If on a low aspect wing and at a low board speed you get up, does it follow that if you replace with a HA wing in same conditions that you just stand on the board longer and you will build up enough speed to fly? Or is there some limit to boards that means that they will reach the 3 knots needed for low aspect but not the 5 knots needed for HA (made those speeds up)

patronus
156 posts
17 Jan 2023 4:57PM
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If on a low aspect wing and at a low board speed you get up, does it follow that if you replace with a HA wing in same conditions that you just stand on the board longer and you will build up enough speed to fly? Or is there some limit to boards that means that they will reach the 3 knots needed for low aspect but not the 5 knots needed for HA (made those speeds up)

DTee
WA, 51 posts
20 Jan 2023 5:41PM
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Select to expand quote
patronus said..
If on a low aspect wing and at a low board speed you get up, does it follow that if you replace with a HA wing in same conditions that you just stand on the board longer and you will build up enough speed to fly? Or is there some limit to boards that means that they will reach the 3 knots needed for low aspect but not the 5 knots needed for HA (made those speeds up)



Comparing my HPS930 to my ART999, I tend to use at least 2 extra pumps before I let my ART up compared to the HPS. Once I get some forward momentum with the HPS, I'm normally up in 3 decent pumps. With the ART, I'm probably about the same speed with 3 pumps but will keep it down for an extra 2 pumps for more speed, to avoid the "up and stall" that happens a lot on your first session with an ART.

ART also doesn't like big, deep pumps like old LA wings. It likes small, quick shallow pumps.

goldenbreeze
5 posts
Friday , 3 Feb 2023 5:50PM
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Quick update; the base plate shim works really well with this specific board.I checked it with a leveller and the board has a little bit of tailrocker in the front of the box and even more in the back. My low-end has improved; board is much easier to get up and up on foil it seems a bit less pitch-sensitive. Found the sweet spot of the mast being quite far forward in the box.



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"Axis ART take off technique / setup" started by goldenbreeze