Forums > Kitesurfing Foiling

Carbon vs Aluminium fuselages

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Created by Faff 29 days ago, 21 May 2018
airsail
QLD, 273 posts
26 May 2018 2:47PM
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dachopper
WA, 1328 posts
26 May 2018 10:18PM
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airsail said..
Yep, I'm lazy but it works. Just have to remember not to drive into the garage. Rigid carbon foils.



'Rigid' is one word to describe them :)

They look like they belong on a game of thrones set, Carbon Battering Ram

Ozone Kites Aus
NSW, 632 posts
Site Sponsor
28 May 2018 10:19AM
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Galvanic corrosion only occurs when the dissimilar metals are in contact with each other. Tefgel grease definitely slows the corrosion process down, but will not stop it completely and usually makes it easier to undo the parts, BUT the best protection is to fully disassemble, especially if they are not going to be used for a while.
Aluminium works well for masts in the shorter lengths of the existing extrusions (Which Ral-In mentioned where actually louvres), but they get too flexxy over 60-70cm. There are some new wider cross section extrusions coming into use, these are much stiffer and can work in the longer lengths.
The fuselage to wing connections on many foils I've looked at are not rigid enough and they flew when being ridden which makes them harder to ride and "feel" the wings.
Some brands chose to work in carbon, but the varieties of carbon itself and types of lay up are one problem, the other main one is how to join the carbon components, so there can be easy disassembly and transport. Many brands chose one piece wings and fuselage. Transport is a hassle and so is accidental damage of a front wing, as you need to replace the whole thing.
Plate mount is hard to make in carbon too and it seems like plate mount will become the industry standard as its more versatile, stronger/stiffer and less expensive than tuttle (Tuttle also requires more thickness in the board)

If I was buying a recreational foil I'd be buying an alloy one and just maintaining it properly. Axis have some new foils coming out asap, in surf and SUP sizes first, there wing to fuselage connection is the strongest and stiffest I've seen. I'll try and get some pics.

Gorgo
VIC, 3939 posts
29 May 2018 12:17PM
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It's a bit disappointing that manufacturers are pursuing aluminium instead of carbon. All the best gear currently available is carbon and all the premium products are using variations on tuttle boxes and one piece wings and fuselage.

The only reason seems to be a modest price benefit to the customer, and I have to assume a significant profit benefit to the sellers.

Aluminium is always going to be heavier, be harder to repair, and require all sorts of measures to resist corrosion. I am guessing we're also going to be stuck with about a dozen bolts to screw it all together. Plate mounts are bulky and a pain to fit.

Carbon just works. A tuttle mount is inherently strong and only requires a couple of retaining screws to lock it together. The screws aren't even load bearing. It takes only a few minutes to do a full pack down and it all fits in the back of my car. I do this every session. It is so much easier and more convenient than lugging around a fully assembled kit and driving a van to hold it all.

At the high end carbon kit is more expensive, but at the freeride end there is only a few hundred dollars difference in price. I would have thought mass production would reduce the price difference even further.

I think the price sensitivity for foiling is because it is still relatively new and people don't want to spend money on something they might not like. It makes more sense to by used gear if that is your priority. Once you get competent at foiling and understand how versatile it is then it is well worth paying a little extra for gear that simply works better.

It's even more absurd when you see buying foil kites that cost more than a full carbon foil and board.

RAL INN
VIC, 2442 posts
29 May 2018 12:37PM
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You sound stressed Gorgo

bigtone667
NSW, 905 posts
29 May 2018 2:05PM
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Gorgo said..
It's a bit disappointing that manufacturers are pursuing aluminium instead of carbon. All the best gear currently available is carbon and all the premium products are using variations on tuttle boxes and one piece wings and fuselage.

The only reason seems to be a modest price benefit to the customer, and I have to assume a significant profit benefit to the sellers.

Aluminium is always going to be heavier, be harder to repair, and require all sorts of measures to resist corrosion. I am guessing we're also going to be stuck with about a dozen bolts to screw it all together. Plate mounts are bulky and a pain to fit.

Carbon just works. A tuttle mount is inherently strong and only requires a couple of retaining screws to lock it together. The screws aren't even load bearing. It takes only a few minutes to do a full pack down and it all fits in the back of my car. I do this every session. It is so much easier and more convenient than lugging around a fully assembled kit and driving a van to hold it all.

At the high end carbon kit is more expensive, but at the freeride end there is only a few hundred dollars difference in price. I would have thought mass production would reduce the price difference even further.

I think the price sensitivity for foiling is because it is still relatively new and people don't want to spend money on something they might not like. It makes more sense to by used gear if that is your priority. Once you get competent at foiling and understand how versatile it is then it is well worth paying a little extra for gear that simply works better.

It's even more absurd when you see buying foil kites that cost more than a full carbon foil and board.


What is the biggest carbon fibre freeride wing?

airsail
QLD, 273 posts
29 May 2018 4:11PM
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Levitaz do a 989 sqcm wing they call a cruiser, 632 cm wingspan. That's quite a big wing and the foil can be fully disassembled.

Gorgo
VIC, 3939 posts
29 May 2018 4:39PM
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RAL INN said..
You sound stressed Gorgo
....


Not stressed at all. I just came in from a 2 hour session cruising around on my foil and 5m kite. It's especially fun to hook into a few wave, then go straight back to the peak for another, and all the windsurfers are stuck on the beach.

I am more perplexed, and a little worried, that the foil market might go down the "VHS" path, when we've already got the "USB stick" with carbon products. It truly is just plug and play.
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bigtone667 said..

....



What is the biggest carbon fibre freeride wing?


J Shapes have the Freeride, the Cruzer, and the C Wave. in order of size from small to large. I have the Freeride and the Cruzer, I have not seen the C Wave.

I use the Cruzer in almost all conditions. It's only a couple of knots slower at the top end, but can go heaps slower at the bottom end.

www.jshapes.com/collections/foils

Kamikuza
QLD, 3191 posts
29 May 2018 5:12PM
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A two-piece foil with a Tuttle box is not very versatile. You can't adjust the trim at the board, change wings or even shim the stabilizer, popular things to do apparently. It's not a couple hundred bucks, it's 25 to 50% more expensive. Is a carbon foil going to be that much better?

I mean, say the mast flex is reduced 50% -- going from 8mm to 4mm. Is that going to be worth $700 to the average rider?

Swavek
WA, 229 posts
29 May 2018 5:41PM
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Can't contribute any knowledge here, but have a question. Just got myself a Moses surf foil (633 wing with 91 cm mast). Still not able to foil, so can't tell you anything about it other then it is supposed to be great for foiling and it was expensive :-)

I prefer to use stuff rather than maintain it. Would prefer carbon fuselage but ended up buying Moses based on reviews and reputation.

Moses owners, what would you consider the minimum maintenance to keep this gear in good shape? Tefgel and pull apart once a week? Once a month? Seems a burden to pull apart and flush after every session as Moses recommends.

By the way, I went in their Facebook page and kept asking why not carbon and when are we going to see carbon. The answer went on in circles saying that 'carbn does not have the right properties'.

Looking forward to knowing and feeling that i have a great foil :-)

bigtone667
NSW, 905 posts
29 May 2018 9:23PM
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airsail said..
Levitaz do a 989 sqcm wing they call a cruiser, 632 cm wingspan. That's quite a big wing and the foil can be fully disassembled.


That is a decent size but still to small for me.

My experience in waves is the bigger/fatter the wing the better. Once they are heading towards the 1200/1300cm2 size they work well for me.

Kamikuza
QLD, 3191 posts
29 May 2018 9:54PM
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bigtone667 said..


airsail said..
Levitaz do a 989 sqcm wing they call a cruiser, 632 cm wingspan. That's quite a big wing and the foil can be fully disassembled.




That is a decent size but still to small for me.

My experience in waves is the bigger/fatter the wing the better. Once they are heading towards the 1200/1300cm2 size they work well for me.



Ditto :D I've got a 1440cm2 wing on the way...820mm wide.

BTW a 632cm wide wing is ****ing massive :D

dachopper
WA, 1328 posts
29 May 2018 10:02PM
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airsail said..
Levitaz do a 989 sqcm wing they call a cruiser, 632 cm wingspan. That's quite a big wing and the foil can be fully disassembled.


Alpine foil have a new 800 sqcm wing, that still goes about 20 kts. , its about 60-65? cm wide i think
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Kamikuza said..
A two-piece foil with a Tuttle box is not very versatile. You can't adjust the trim at the board, change wings or even shim the stabilizer, popular things to do apparently. It's not a couple hundred bucks, it's 25 to 50% more expensive. Is a carbon foil going to be that much better?

I mean, say the mast flex is reduced 50% -- going from 8mm to 4mm. Is that going to be worth $700 to the average rider?


There are 2 separate issues here, 1 is that if you buy a 1 piece foil, you are stuck with it - no matter what it's made out of aluminium or f glass or carbon, with no ability to change anything including the foils themselves.

The second is that carbon is 'the' best material for the job, when in actual fact it isn't. It's great at stopping things from stretching, and that is it. Use your imagination to figure out how that equates to stiffness in a foil, or in a mast. The fuselage has to retain the mast and foil connectors, transmit the torsional / lift, drag and compress forces at the mast end .

You can try and make a isotropic Carbon fuselage, that has greater strength than say titanium, and it will weight less, but it will be physically bigger, which means more drag., which means slower - and they have been documented as being prone to catastrophic snapping during jump landings, something I have not heard of with the aluminium or titanium.

In my opinion, being able to change wings, from a beginner, to race or freeride on the same mast / fuselage, has a much greater influence on your riding, when compared to you being stuck on a beginner all carbon setup, then buying another for wave, another for race etc...... It's a waste.

airsail
QLD, 273 posts
30 May 2018 4:26AM
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From my experience the fuselage is the highest stressed part of the foil. And that stress is concentrated to the area between the front of the mast and rear of the front wing. Jumping puts a huge load on that area if landing flat as does hitting things. Moses sticking to alloy and Levitaz with stainless allows for a strong low profile fuselage that can be fully disassembled with little chance of breaking.

I'm using the Naish medium surf for the slow stuff and a Levitaz Bionic to scare the **** out of myself. Naish make a nice alloy foil, and now allow you to build your own, unlike last year when you had to buy the Kite foil, then spend more on a surf wing for the slow stuff. No maintenance on the Levitaz and this years shorter fuselage has dropped the weight to just over 800gms compared to last years 1200gm fuselage.

bigtone667
NSW, 905 posts
30 May 2018 5:48AM
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Kamikuza said..

bigtone667 said..



airsail said..
Levitaz do a 989 sqcm wing they call a cruiser, 632 cm wingspan. That's quite a big wing and the foil can be fully disassembled.





That is a decent size but still to small for me.

My experience in waves is the bigger/fatter the wing the better. Once they are heading towards the 1200/1300cm2 size they work well for me.




Ditto :D I've got a 1440cm2 wing on the way...820mm wide.

BTW a 632cm wide wing is ****ing massive :D


820cm wide.... should be called The Scythe.

Naish have an XL and XXL surf wing coming out. Looking forward to the monster wing and surf.

airsail
QLD, 273 posts
30 May 2018 7:26AM
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1440 wing, 820 wide, that's huge! Can't imagine trying to get going on something that big, the medium surf at 1032 rockets out of the water if you don't have your weight way forward

RAL INN
VIC, 2442 posts
30 May 2018 7:59AM
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The XXLW Spitfire wings at 1300cm2 still Trump the conventional foil with 1500cm2




DukeSilver
WA, 201 posts
30 May 2018 6:43AM
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Swavek said..
Can't contribute any knowledge here, but have a question. Just got myself a Moses surf foil (633 wing with 91 cm mast). Still not able to foil, so can't tell you anything about it other then it is supposed to be great for foiling and it was expensive :-)

I prefer to use stuff rather than maintain it. Would prefer carbon fuselage but ended up buying Moses based on reviews and reputation.

Moses owners, what would you consider the minimum maintenance to keep this gear in good shape? Tefgel and pull apart once a week? Once a month? Seems a burden to pull apart and flush after every session as Moses recommends.

By the way, I went in their Facebook page and kept asking why not carbon and when are we going to see carbon. The answer went on in circles saying that 'carbn does not have the right properties'.

Looking forward to knowing and feeling that i have a great foil :-)


Great choice of foil Swavek. These are the hottest foil around at the moment and there is a mountain of quality foilers frothing about the Moses Onda 633 on Kiteforum. A Moses will be my next foil for sure. Lots of wing and stabiliser options along with plate mount so you can have adjustment and a big choice of boards to use. And they just look sexy.

bigtone667
NSW, 905 posts
30 May 2018 9:24AM
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RAL INN said..
The XXLW Spitfire wings at 1300cm2 still Trump the conventional foil with 1500cm2





What's the white wing?

RAL INN
VIC, 2442 posts
30 May 2018 10:57AM
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bigtone667 said..

RAL INN said..
The XXLW Spitfire wings at 1300cm2 still Trump the conventional foil with 1500cm2





What's the white wing?


Proto

Kamikuza
QLD, 3191 posts
30 May 2018 12:50PM
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RAL INN said..
The XXLW Spitfire wings at 1300cm2 still Trump the conventional foil with 1500cm2





That was his opinion though. Not everyone will agree ;)



Select to expand quote
bigtone667 said..


Kamikuza said..



bigtone667 said..





airsail said..
Levitaz do a 989 sqcm wing they call a cruiser, 632 cm wingspan. That's quite a big wing and the foil can be fully disassembled.







That is a decent size but still to small for me.

My experience in waves is the bigger/fatter the wing the better. Once they are heading towards the 1200/1300cm2 size they work well for me.






Ditto :D I've got a 1440cm2 wing on the way...820mm wide.

BTW a 632cm wide wing is ****ing massive :D




820cm wide.... should be called The Scythe.

Naish have an XL and XXL surf wing coming out. Looking forward to the monster wing and surf.



I rode the 920 in NZ, and there's an 1120 available too. Higher AR than the shovel head in the Zeeko picture.

Thought I posted a picture...





Swavek
WA, 229 posts
30 May 2018 4:41PM
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DukeSilver said..

Swavek said..
Can't contribute any knowledge here, but have a question. Just got myself a Moses surf foil (633 wing with 91 cm mast). Still not able to foil, so can't tell you anything about it other then it is supposed to be great for foiling and it was expensive :-)

I prefer to use stuff rather than maintain it. Would prefer carbon fuselage but ended up buying Moses based on reviews and reputation.

Moses owners, what would you consider the minimum maintenance to keep this gear in good shape? Tefgel and pull apart once a week? Once a month? Seems a burden to pull apart and flush after every session as Moses recommends.

By the way, I went in their Facebook page and kept asking why not carbon and when are we going to see carbon. The answer went on in circles saying that 'carbn does not have the right properties'.

Looking forward to knowing and feeling that i have a great foil :-)



Great choice of foil Swavek. These are the hottest foil around at the moment and there is a mountain of quality foilers frothing about the Moses Onda 633 on Kiteforum. A Moses will be my next foil for sure. Lots of wing and stabiliser options along with plate mount so you can have adjustment and a big choice of boards to use. And they just look sexy.


Yes, meant to be great - if I could only ride it
Beware that you need a different fuselage to use the kitesurfing wings. Only the mast is common part.

DukeSilver
WA, 201 posts
31 May 2018 6:43AM
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Select to expand quote
Swavek said..

DukeSilver said..


Swavek said..
Can't contribute any knowledge here, but have a question. Just got myself a Moses surf foil (633 wing with 91 cm mast). Still not able to foil, so can't tell you anything about it other then it is supposed to be great for foiling and it was expensive :-)

I prefer to use stuff rather than maintain it. Would prefer carbon fuselage but ended up buying Moses based on reviews and reputation.

Moses owners, what would you consider the minimum maintenance to keep this gear in good shape? Tefgel and pull apart once a week? Once a month? Seems a burden to pull apart and flush after every session as Moses recommends.

By the way, I went in their Facebook page and kept asking why not carbon and when are we going to see carbon. The answer went on in circles saying that 'carbn does not have the right properties'.

Looking forward to knowing and feeling that i have a great foil :-)




Great choice of foil Swavek. These are the hottest foil around at the moment and there is a mountain of quality foilers frothing about the Moses Onda 633 on Kiteforum. A Moses will be my next foil for sure. Lots of wing and stabiliser options along with plate mount so you can have adjustment and a big choice of boards to use. And they just look sexy.



Yes, meant to be great - if I could only ride it
Beware that you need a different fuselage to use the kitesurfing wings. Only the mast is common part.


Hi Swavek. Yes I realize that. I'm getting the Fluente, not the Onda. I want a bit more speed potential - although the Onda is meant to be faster than it looks according to various reports.

Rebelrida
QLD, 8 posts
31 May 2018 11:31AM
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Hi loving the new big Italian (moses 633) For kitefoiling .. Alloy fuse carbon wings ....Slightly modified to fit a 610mm slingshot mast. For shallow water.Great setup This beast excells in transitions, and toesde tracking..












Jedibrad
NSW, 491 posts
5 Jun 2018 9:28AM
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Kamikuza said..
A two-piece foil with a Tuttle box is not very versatile. You can't adjust the trim at the board, change wings or even shim the stabilizer, popular things to do apparently. It's not a couple hundred bucks, it's 25 to 50% more expensive. Is a carbon foil going to be that much better?

I mean, say the mast flex is reduced 50% -- going from 8mm to 4mm. Is that going to be worth $700 to the average rider?


Yep, learners need to know this

I'm 70 kilo and have had to adjust my stab aoa up

With a tuttle i would have also been standing far too close to the front of the board which makes turns bad and when learning nose dives on touch down

eddiemorgs
NT, 299 posts
5 Jun 2018 2:58PM
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Crikey .... just read this thread

All this discussion about areas of wings , front and rear sizes , shimming and making adjustments to setup to do one thing or another , adjusting mast placement...... and aluminium vs carbon etc.

Feeling a bit perplexed as I've obviously missed out on so much detailed tuning.

With my Jshapes I just decide whether I want to ride the freestyle ( quicker , more locked in )or the cruzer foil (wavey , slower and looser ) .... then 4 bolts and off I go.
They both work beautifully and are not compromised by the complex mixture of choice which comes with interchangeable bits.
I honestly cannot fault either foil or the way that Jshapes have designed the complete package and have never had to consider if I changed something it might be better.
Except now waiting on a new 120 board
There is a bit to be said for simplicity and good design , plug in a go ....

Have ridden 4 other major brands and still can't wait to get back to my Jshapes .
Good value for carbon gear and it just simply works .

Trying not to pimp Jshapes , but I am loving it ... obviously
I have learnt on it and have not stopped developing my skills on it ... can't see the point in changing a thing.

Gorgo
VIC, 3939 posts
5 Jun 2018 8:42PM
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^^^^^ what he said.

If if you want to change settings then good luck to you.

If you have to change settings then know that there are well designed foils that work perfectly out of the box.

warwickl
NSW, 949 posts
5 Jun 2018 8:51PM
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Gorgo said..
^^^^^ what he said.

If if you want to change settings then good luck to you.

If you have to change settings then know that there are well designed foils that work perfectly out of the box.



Wow - so no future development or refinement required.
- I want one of the one size fits all people and conditions for now and the future.
No user input required for improvement - are you kidding the world would end.

eddiemorgs
NT, 299 posts
5 Jun 2018 9:28PM
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warwickl said..

Gorgo said..
^^^^^ what he said.

If if you want to change settings then good luck to you.

If you have to change settings then know that there are well designed foils that work perfectly out of the box.




Wow - so no future development or refinement required.
- I want one of the one size fits all people and conditions for now and the future.
No user input required for improvement - are you kidding the world would end.


Well yeah ... Jesus , it's a foil , the world won't end ... maybe try it if you haven't.
if you are a skilled maker of foils , boards and masts , then good luck to you. Make your own , go for it.
If you want to ..ck about with the manufacturers specs. , good luck. They have spent countless hours refing it .
Me , I can't be bothered.

I wonder if the adjusting settings is more to do with our own shortcomings than the gear ???
Every , single .... session out on my gear I learn something new .

And with what I have been using ... I simply .... have no reason to change it. No adjustment has been required , if it's needed , then the gear you have or you are not performing .

This might be the nature of Jshapes gear suiting my style , not sure ...

But me ... Happy as Larry. The gear gets better the better I get. Funny that ...



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"Carbon vs Aluminium fuselages" started by Faff