Forums > Kitesurfing Foiling

"Scooped" vs. flat pocket Kitefoil board

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Created by Mokuleia 2 months ago, 4 May 2020
Mokuleia
16 posts
4 May 2020 10:55AM
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Hi everyone,

I have been riding my 4'6" drawftcraft for several months now and think it is time to transition to something smaller, like a pocket style board in the 120-130cm range. I am 180lbs/80kg, 6' tall, intermediate rider foiling primarily on flat/choppy waters and do a little swell riding.

I've shopped around and found that the biggest difference between brands was primarily in the rocker, with either "flat" boards (duotone pace, F-one pocket) or heavily scooped ones (North Scoop, Groove wave and even Kahana shapes to some extent).

I was wondering if you guys could share your experience and discuss the advantages and drawbacks between flat or scooped pocket boards. One difference I have observed in small scooped boards is the front foot sitting slightly higher relative to the back foot? Does this provide more control? Does it allow for smoother transitions or make things actually harder?

Thanks!

webbySA
SA, 6 posts
4 May 2020 1:03PM
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I have ridden both styles and prefer boards with rocker. The biggest advantage is that you can save most touchdowns as the rocker keeps the board on the surface. I don't notice any issues with the front foot being elevated slightly. Pocket boards are so small and light it really enhances the foiling experience - enjoy :)

djdojo
VIC, 1560 posts
4 May 2020 2:12PM
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Rocker definitely. Yes, you want your front foot a bit higher, especially when you're riding down/dropping into swell or waves. It's much more stable and comfortable, as well as handling touch-downs better.

I wouldn't call 120cm a pocket board these days. Surely a pocket board is only a few inches longer than your stance. I ride two boards regularly and the 86cm one (paired with Lift 150) feels like a pocket board while the 100cm one gives me more area when starting with a smaller foil (original Zeeko Carver), and is, to my thinking, barely in the "pocket" category.

If you're riding strapless, the less volume the better. Ideally it barely floats - makes for faster hands-free waterstarts.

horey69
QLD, 346 posts
4 May 2020 7:49PM
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I have both the 3"6' micro slingshot dwarf craft (minimal scoop) and a Carbon Co Nang.
I only ride strapless and about the same size as you. I ride Bayside wind swell and don't really notice the difference between the two. Once your ready for a pocket board your skills will be up there anyway.
And it's no big deal if you go over the front from time to time.
There was a bit of discussion about rocker on the low volume board thread on this forum not so long ago.
Hot tip you get used to what ever you ride.
Mitch at the Carbon will make you what ever you need.


airsail
QLD, 432 posts
4 May 2020 9:29PM
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Once you have ridden a pocket board with plenty of rocker you won't go back to a flat board. Imagine never nose diving during a touchdown ever again.

Mokuleia
16 posts
5 May 2020 2:06PM
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Thanks all for your replies. I'm planning actually to build this board my self. The attached template is essentially a mix between Moses' T38 (120cm x 45cm) with the rocker of the North's Scoop (8cm). I opted for 4cm thick. Could go a little thinner, but want to install tracks (future fins 10 3/4 boxes), so can't go too thin. What do you guys think of it? Should I add little more rocker? Would wider (48 cm) be more comfortable and easier for transitions?





Livit
WA, 486 posts
5 May 2020 11:30PM
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Select to expand quote
Mokuleia said..
Thanks all for your replies. I'm planning actually to build this board my self. The attached template is essentially a mix between Moses' T38 (120cm x 45cm) with the rocker of the North's Scoop (8cm). I opted for 4cm thick. Could go a little thinner, but want to install tracks (future fins 10 3/4 boxes), so can't go too thin. What do you guys think of it? Should I add little more rocker? Would wider (48 cm) be more comfortable and easier for transitions?






With futures you can go 25mm. You can also use 20mm PVC + a narrow sheet of 5 or 10mm glued to the bottom. I have done it and it works great.

I am currently making a 20mm one. I have shaved the bottom of the futures track (3mm) which is leaving the tacks exposed on the deck before lamination.

Where are you based?

Swavek
WA, 339 posts
6 May 2020 12:01AM
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Plan to make a replica of Kanaha shapes rocker on my next board. Never used one before but supposed to be good. I believe rocker is very helpful, esp. when learning.

Have Kanaha rocker estimate based on a photo.


Mokuleia
16 posts
6 May 2020 1:59AM
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Select to expand quote
Livit said..

With futures you can go 25mm. You can also use 20mm PVC + a narrow sheet of 5 or 10mm glued to the bottom. I have done it and it works great.

I am currently making a 20mm one. I have shaved the bottom of the futures track (3mm) which is leaving the tacks exposed on the deck before lamination.

Where are you based?


Are you planning on using HD foam for the Future Fins tracks or simply rely on the deck contacting the back of box for extra reinforcement?

I am located in Honolulu, Hawaii.

Mokuleia
16 posts
6 May 2020 2:16AM
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Select to expand quote
Swavek said..
Plan to make a replica of Kanaha shapes rocker on my next board. Never used one before but supposed to be good. I believe rocker is very helpful, esp. when learning.

Have Kanaha rocker estimate based on a photo.


Thanks! 10cm is also what I measure on the North Scoop.

I can pop the image of the Kanaha above into Shape 3D X if you want a more accurate values of the rocker and foil. LMK.




Swavek
WA, 339 posts
6 May 2020 4:32AM
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Thanks Mokuleia, not familiar with this software but from what you are saying it would help :-)

My email is swavek.zykus@gmail.com

Cheers

Mokuleia
16 posts
6 May 2020 1:40PM
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Here is what I have for you so far. The only picture of the rocker available online is not perfectly aligned and part of the bottom is visible. I tried to take this into account but I am not a big fan of how the scoop came out. If anyone with a Kanaha on hand could check my dimensions, especially the thickness, that would be great. Outline is spot on though.







Livit
WA, 486 posts
6 May 2020 4:03PM
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Select to expand quote
Mokuleia said..

Livit said..

With futures you can go 25mm. You can also use 20mm PVC + a narrow sheet of 5 or 10mm glued to the bottom. I have done it and it works great.

I am currently making a 20mm one. I have shaved the bottom of the futures track (3mm) which is leaving the tacks exposed on the deck before lamination.

Where are you based?



Are you planning on using HD foam for the Future Fins tracks or simply rely on the deck contacting the back of box for extra reinforcement?

I am located in Honolulu, Hawaii.


The blank is HD foam.

Mokuleia
16 posts
7 May 2020 1:42AM
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The blank is HD foam.



Any density you would recommend for this? Any experience with construction XPS foam?

At this thickness, can you bend the HD blank during lamination to get the rocker or do you hot wire cut it?

Livit
WA, 486 posts
7 May 2020 9:17AM
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Mokuleia said..

The blank is HD foam.




Any density you would recommend for this? Any experience with construction XPS foam?

At this thickness, can you bend the HD blank during lamination to get the rocker or do you hot wire cut it?


I use 60kg and 80kg. Both work fine.

A hot wire won't go through that foam. You can thermo form it with a heater against a rocker template.

I have made a few with XPS but I don't think I'll use it again. They have a tendency to delaminate. If you take good care of your board it ok but things like leaving it in hard sun for a bit will make the skin pop for sure. I haven't had any major delams, just random spots up to 10cm in diameter.

If you use XPS, you still have to put a HD foam insert. I made a strapless board without once just to see how light I could go. The board lasted about 70 sessions until it snapped just in front of the tracks. From the first time out, I could hear some faint cracking noise. It settled after a few times out so I am guessing it deteriorated internally gradually until the days it snapped. There was no external sign of failure prior to this.

CJ2478
NSW, 403 posts
7 May 2020 7:37PM
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Will a 20mm 60kg/m3 divinycell blank work for a 1000mm board?

2 layers carbon each side with patches over track mount.

KBGhost
QLD, 94 posts
8 May 2020 8:49PM
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I ride both axis tray 94 (scoop) & Nang 100 (not much).

Honestly it's not a huge factor like Horey says you adjust either way.

Personally I slightly favour the scoop in swell it gives a little extra confidence when you're feeling like you're just barely in control and riding downhill contemplating a sharp pull up at the bottom. However in reality I tripped over the nose quite often when first riding a pocket board and almost never now in any conditions.

I slightly prefer flatter in flat water, more even stance and the flatter board seems easier to start sometimes when underpowered you need to ride the pocket board flat underwater as if you're on the surface while you get kite powered up again. Hard to describe but it's a technique that seems to work for me. Scoop board won't ride evenly underwater.

Swavek
WA, 339 posts
10 May 2020 1:42PM
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Select to expand quote
Mokuleia said..
Here is what I have for you so far. The only picture of the rocker available online is not perfectly aligned and part of the bottom is visible. I tried to take this into account but I am not a big fan of how the scoop came out. If anyone with a Kanaha on hand could check my dimensions, especially the thickness, that would be great. Outline is spot on though.









Thanks for this, my estimate of rocker was a bit different, hard to tell who got it better unless you own a 37" Kanaha and are able to measure. The key measurements would be how much of the back of board is flat (where the scoop starts) and what is the maximum scoop (at the tip of board).

Any owners of Kanaha out there to assist?

Mokuleia
16 posts
31 May 2020 2:32PM
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OK guys, little update on the project. I finally got some pre-cut 2pcf EPS from a local manufacturer. The kitefoil board is done with a 1" thick blank. Its is based on Naish's Hover 112 (that is 44"). Fastest board I have ever shaped. Very simple outline, no bottom contours, just slight chined rails. I added a 5pcf track insert for extra strength. Got so much foam, I figured I could also make a new 4'6" foil prone board as well using one of the 4" thick blank I got ;-)



I kind of miscalculated the routing of the future tracks and cut through the board. Ended sanded the boxes a bit, not a big deal. As a matter of fact, this will allow to contact the tracks to the deck, which should make for a stronger bond.



Next step is vacuum lamination of the bottom first using 2 layers of 6oz carbon. The board will be placed on an adjustable rocker table and loaded with some weights. Then, 2 layers of 6oz carbon for the deck, hoat-coat, sanding...Stay tuned!










dafish
NSW, 1464 posts
31 May 2020 6:52PM
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Nice! Look forward to your progress and then on to the riding!

Mokuleia
16 posts
17 Jun 2020 6:31AM
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OK folks, the board is done and I have been riding it 5-7 times already (trade winds finally came back in Hawaii ;-) Overall I am super happy with the board. It is such an upgrade compared to my 4'6" dwarfcraft slingshot-style board. At 44" and 2.3kg, this little board is a pleasure to ride.




PROS:
- Water-starts are surprisingly easy, as long as you pop the board up quickly to be on the foil.
- Not having to hold the board on the side (hand-free water-start) is so nice.
- Being thin and light, I feel like I can recover better when the foil is breaching compared to bigger/thicker boards.
- Not sure if it is my imagination, but I seems that I feel more the foil behavior with this light/thin board, like when travelling though some turbulence.
- Having the foil track is great, but I think I will be placing the mast all the way back from now on, except if I switch to a smaller front wing in the future.

CONS:
- After few sessions, I already feel that I could have gone a good 5-10 inches shorter ;-)
- Although the title of this thread was "flat vs. scooped", I ended up in the middle with about 6.5cm of rocker. Going down an unbroken wave can be tricky when the swell period is short (wind swells). Should have followed you guys advises and add more scoop, like 10cm total. I will probably go directly to a Kanaha-style shape next time.

In any case, I would highly recommend to those on the fence to try riding small/thin/light boards, they are a real pleasure to foil with and so responsive!

Cheers, Moku

DukeSilver
WA, 309 posts
17 Jun 2020 5:26PM
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Killer board! Great work Moku.

Pilz
WA, 39 posts
17 Jun 2020 6:18PM
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Pilz
WA, 39 posts
17 Jun 2020 6:19PM
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Pilz
WA, 39 posts
17 Jun 2020 6:20PM
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A few I have build recently..
Let me know if you want one..

Mokuleia
16 posts
18 Jun 2020 2:01AM
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Nice boards dude. Could you please share a little about the construction? Did you used metal inserts to mount the foil? Is is cork on the last photo?

Pilz
WA, 39 posts
18 Jun 2020 4:56AM
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Hi Mokuleia..
Boards all have future tracks for the mast attachment.
I am using high density PVC foam as a core, either 15 or 20mm thick and then rise the track section to accommodate the tracks.













Pilz
WA, 39 posts
18 Jun 2020 5:04AM
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Yes the brown boards have a cork top that is exposed and used as a traction pad..


















Pilz
WA, 39 posts
18 Jun 2020 5:11AM
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Yes the brown boards have a cork top that is exposed and used as a traction pad..


















Pilz
WA, 39 posts
18 Jun 2020 5:15AM
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I am based in Perth if some one is keen on a new board or needs a repair done.










Mokuleia
16 posts
18 Jun 2020 6:54AM
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Nice! Is extruded aluminum frame a rocket table? What's is your preferred method to curve your blanks. I tried clamps and weight during vacuum lamination but must admit it tends to deform the blank...



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""Scooped" vs. flat pocket Kitefoil board" started by Mokuleia